Comments on The Anglican Scotist: What's Going on in Gaza?

Here is a link to a fairly reliable--even conserva...

2009-01-19T21:40:00.000-05:00

Here is a link to a fairly reliable--even conservative--military analyst on the subject that you, and anyone else following this, might find interesting:

http://www.d-n-i.net/dni/2009/01/18/on-war-288-israel-doesnt-get-4gw/

It seems to me the broad outline of the piece is on target.

Maybe it would be self-selecting. The 70% who are ...

2009-01-19T21:15:00.000-05:00

Maybe it would be self-selecting. The 70% who are willing to move for a house or a job are not the radicals.

I think it would be appropriate to have them sign quitclaim deeds to show they were accepting the restitution and relocation in good faith.

Maybe we should remember Gaza shares a border with...

2009-01-19T21:00:00.000-05:00

Maybe we should remember Gaza shares a border with Egypt--and the entire Israeli operation took place with Egyptian permission.

The Palestinians--say 2/3--might well wish to leave, but they are unwanted, even among their fellow Arabs.

It seems that conundrum has something to do with the fact Egypt is an authoritarian state trying to keep a lid on radicalism, no?

Well, there was an IMRA survey from November 30, 2...

2009-01-19T19:49:00.000-05:00

Well, there was an IMRA survey from November 30, 2004 that showed that 70% of Palestinians would be willing to leave if they could have houses and/or jobs or both in a new location.

"In answer to the question "What would induce you to emigrate permanently,
only 15% stated that nothing would induce them. Over 70% (71%)specified one
or more material factors that would induce to emigrate permanently them such
as substantial financial compensation; guarantee of a good job abroad; a
good level of housing."

There is no doubt in my mind that the current situ...

2009-01-19T19:36:00.000-05:00

There is no doubt in my mind that the current situation is untenable, and if I were an Israeli, I would think of this invasion and the prior invasion of Lebanon as potential disasters that could embolden the worst and most virulent Palestinian factions.

Why? It is apparent now to anyone who wants to see that the situation in Gaza and Lebanon is to a large extent outside state control, and no new approaches are on the table. Israel has lost momentum.

Sure, arms dealing nations are happy to sell Israel--and Arab nations--weapons and co-operate with this whole self-defeating scheme of half-axxed incursions. Or: the US is doing no favor to Israel by lending them all this rope.

But look at South Africa, look at Northern Ireland: there is a way forward. It may take some time, but if Israel could reconcile itself to granting Arab Israelis full rights and separating synagogue from state--effectively ceasing to be officially Jewish--coexistence would be possible.

I suspect there is no practical way that the Israeli state will become secular.

Just my opinion .

Hi Anglican Scotist,What I think is that the indiv...

2009-01-18T12:45:00.000-05:00

Hi Anglican Scotist,

What I think is that the individual Palestinians should be paid restitution by Israel for the the taking of their lands in exchange for a quit claim. And that Palestinians should be able to use that money to begin new lives in neighboring Arab states. Or in Iran as the Iranians seem to care about their situation so much.

Why are those countries so willing to provide weapons and not to re-settle the refugees?

If the refugees came with money to buy homes and start businesses or attend schools, would they be welcomed?

Or is destroying Israel the only acceptable outcome?

Anon,Gazans have been living in a world of depriva...

2009-01-18T01:38:00.000-05:00

Anon,

Gazans have been living in a world of deprivation and brutality for quite some time; Hamas will reflect that. Remember, states sometimes begin with acts of atrocity: consider the King David Hotel bombing & the Irgun--a terrorist organization with a leader, Begin, who would go on to great things. Such is the way of the world in Israel--and in Gaza: no double standards.

Moshe Dayan sounds like a monster, a psychopath, in that quote. It is incredible. Do you think it is representative?

Perpetua,Good; I'd be willing to say "let it be" e...

2009-01-18T01:27:00.000-05:00

Perpetua,

Good; I'd be willing to say "let it be" except for three points:

(1)the state of Israel broke the prior cease-fire by bombing smuggling tunnels, and Hamas responded with its idiotic and immoral missile strikes; one would suppose the cease fire was broken with a cost/benefit analysis in mind, no?

(2)more importantly, if there is such a thing as a just war (I don't have a settled opinion), the response has to be proportinal and civilians should not have been targeted; that implies Gaza should not be under a state of seige where food and medical supplies are left in such short supply.

In Israel's defense one might say "just" and "unjust" only tendentiously apply to states on the Realist point of view, which is dominant in international theory.

(3)most importantly, this particular incursion seems to have been largely in vain; more such incursions can be expected in the future. The state of Israel apparently has no answer; it keeps returning to failed courses of action.

That is a matter of grave concern to the U.S--I should think.

Hamas, with the rockets, is playing a card - to ha...

2009-01-17T23:43:00.000-05:00

Hamas, with the rockets, is playing a card - to harass Israel so that it can make a deal. Rockets stop if acts of war stop... those being the siege and the hunting expeditions, the invasions of airspace. Israel, however, refuses this, claiming to be sovereign over Gaza, claiming the people of Gaza to be theirs to abuse or dispose of at their will. This is the problem here. Hamas says that in a bid to end the siege, to end the hunting expeditions, the risk of Israeli reprisals is worth it - and when you consider Gaza being starved to death and subject to endless terror, trying to establish some kind of security through a non-aggression agreement is a worthwhile aim...

The West however wants no mutual security - it wants more siege, slow death for Gaza, terror for its people and believe Gaza people as all Palestinians belong to Israel to abuse at its whim. They believe in Moshe Dayan's promise made in 1967, that "The situation today resembles the complex relationship between a Bedouin man and a girl he kidnaps against her will. You Palestinians as a nation don't want us today, but we'll change your attitude by forcing our presence on you. You will live like dogs and whoever will leave will leave."

Hi Anglican Scotist,The big problem I have with th...

2009-01-17T17:13:00.000-05:00

Hi Anglican Scotist,

The big problem I have with this hypothesis is that it ignores the actions of Hamas:
1)shooting rockets at Israeli civilian targets,
2) endangering the Palestinian civilian population by shooting rockets from residential areas, and
3) storing weapons in mosques and schools.

So it seems like a lot of the devastation is the "natural consequences" of Hamas tactics. It seems like Hamas has so embedded its weaponry throughout the buildings of Gaza, that retaliation necessarily leads to destruction of civilian life.